Responses to hate mail from cloudmichael@hotmail.com.

Part of the "Critiques of Libertarianism" site.
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

Last updated 10/25/07.

As editor of the major web site criticizing libertarianism, I routinely get an assortment of thank you's, and a variety of hate mail.

But I was surprised to get email from somebody presenting himself as Michael Cloud, the Libertarian party political strategist (accused by many party faithful of exploiting the party finances to pad his wallet and those of his ilk.) Didn't he have campaigns to run? If anybody can confirm for me that this was an account really used by that Michael Cloud, I'd be interested.

This hate mail was a fine example of trolling: saying inflammatory things in hope that you'll provoke response that can be used for further attacks. The best response to trolling is to recognize what the troll wants (apologetic behavior or other appearances of weakness) and not only deny the troll that, but ridicule him in the process. It's also fun to use anything HE reveals against him, but the key thing is to frustrate him by not taking the bait.

So, for your amusement, here are my responses to a common kind of assault from libertarians.


From mhuben Mon Feb 14 14:07:10 2000
To: "Michael Cloud" 
Subject: Re:  Lame Duck Site = Lame Duck Person

Ah, more hate mail, this time from one of the more politically active
libertarians.  I always keep copies of these things.

    There are 2 types of people in this world. The doers and the talkers. You 
    are a talker
    
Gee, the whole libertarian party qualifies as talkers then.  They are perhaps
the most ineffectual political party ever.
    
    who hides behind a highschool level design web site cutting 
    everything down.

Ho hum.  Some people would rather have flash than substance: indeed, that may
be the only appeal of libertarianism.  Flashy rhetoric, no substance.

Does it sting when your propaganda is ridiculed?  Good.  Many, many people
write me to thank me for my efforts.
    
    You obviously have aspirations to write for USA Today or 
    People magazine as is seen by your writing style.

Why, if I can reach people the way they do, that's fine.  I have no intention
of writing in ways that make my site inaccessible to average people.  And
it's not necessary: the fallacies that libertarians spread can be easily
debunked in plain language.

    1. What do you DO to improve the country, besides spout your narrow 
    intellectual scope of what is happening with your fear based mentality.

What I do is a step up from the harmful proposals of libertarians.

And just how do you know I have a "fear based mentality"?  Give me a break
from your psychobabble.
    
    2. You obviously don't apply the techniques of Aikido to your daily life as 
    is  shown by the style of your "critique" and your "attitude".

I guess you don't know anything about Aikido.  Nor do I give a fig about
your judgements of me.  What kind of a pompous asshole are you?
    
    3. What candidates have you volunteered for in the past years? What 
    demonstrations? What actual activism do you actually DO?

None of your business.  I am not competing with anyone to be "most active",
and a significant part of my strategic activity is concealed from opponents
like you.
    
    I can tell you are an very happy person loved and sought out by all.
    
You wouldn't know.  You're just another jerk who likes rattling cages and
playing head games.
 
Mike Huben      mhuben@world.std.com    http://world.std.com/~mhuben/
  
For rebuttals to libertarian arguments, check out:
 Critiques of Libertarianism     http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html
 Liberalism Resurgent            http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/tenets.htm
See also my monthly column at Suite 101:
 Skepticism                      http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/skepticism

Well, if flip answers could win victory for libertarianism, we would have
been in power long ago.
Bob Waldrop

From mhuben Mon Feb 14 15:26:17 2000
To: "Michael Cloud" 
Subject: Re: Lame Duck Site = Lame Duck Person

    Just as I thought. You don't walk your talk at all. A lame duck, or in a 
    Martial Arts term which I doubt you understand.
    
    A PAPER TIGER............
    
    A person of such rank does not put out the crap that you do on your site. 
    YOU DON'T LIVE IT AT ALL.
    
    or in another term........YOU ARE AN ARMCHAIR\TV Remote ACTIVIST....
    
    Its easy to apply ones intellect to GENERALLY ACCEPTED concepts and dogma 
    like you do. (Even if they are obsolete, archaic and hurt people).
    
    People like you of limited intellect and low self esteem do that because:
    
    1. They haven't got the Balls\ovaries to believe in something that is not 
    the status quo.
    2. They are more interested in being accepted by people than their beliefs.
    
    You are so open on your lame page except for the really important facts that 
    would make you credible to someone that mattered..a real DOER and ACTIVIST
    
    No real ACTIONS to back up your high and mighty position.
    
    You are pathetic. If you are so interested in bugs and the environment are 
    you involved in the rainforest effort?
    
    When the shit hits the fan..........YOU ARE NOT THERE
    
Ah, the genteel art of ad hominem.  Attack with a zillion distractions
from the strong position of your opponent.

Thanks, but I don't need jerks like you to tell me what to do.  You obviously
know nothing about me, except in your fervid fantasies.

'Another trick of successful salespeople is to "get a 'no' quickly - and move
on," rather than continuing to work on someone who may never buy one's product.'

Follow your own advice, and crawl back under your rock.
 
Mike Huben      mhuben@world.std.com    http://world.std.com/~mhuben/
  
For rebuttals to libertarian arguments, check out:
 Critiques of Libertarianism     http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html
 Liberalism Resurgent            http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/tenets.htm
See also my monthly column at Suite 101:
 Skepticism                      http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/skepticism

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell

From mhuben Mon Feb 14 16:50:53 2000
To: "Michael Cloud" 
Subject: Re: Lame Duck Site = Lame Duck Person

    Thanks for your response. Yours is the classic response of a wimp\paper 
    tiger\armchair activist. You are as bad as the politicians you support. You 
    are a reason why the coutry is falling apart.SHEEP!
    
    With "opponents" {lmao,rofl} like you I can see that people of real 
    intellect, vision, heart actually LIVING and DOING ACTIONS based on their 
    beliefs have nothing to "worry" {lmao,rofl} about with you and your like.
    
    I guess if I crawled under a rock I'd find you there fearfully and 
    frenetically hiding out, typing your web site.
    
    A legend in your own narrow, negative cycled mind.
    
Thanks for your provocation.  Yours is the classic fishing expedition for
further attack opportunities.  Not that folks like you need to learn anything
about your opponents: you're perfectly happy to manufacture lies and insults.

And for all your "LIVING and DOING", you still have barely been able to
elect a few dogcatchers to office.  The LP as a whole is a colossal failure,
a propaganda machine that a few bloodsucking hacks like yourself exploit.
Big frog in a vanishingly small puddle.

Maybe I'll just post this whole exchange to talk.politics.libertarian.
Or put it up at my site to let people see that "important" libertarians
also have nothing better to do than send harrassing email.
 
Mike Huben      mhuben@world.std.com    http://world.std.com/~mhuben/
  
For rebuttals to libertarian arguments, check out:
 Critiques of Libertarianism     http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html
 Liberalism Resurgent            http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/tenets.htm
See also my monthly column at Suite 101:
 Skepticism                      http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/skepticism

Utopias now appear much more realizable than one used to think. We are now
faced with a different new worry: How to prevent their realization.
Nicolas Berdiaeff

From mhuben Mon Feb 14 18:04:35 2000
To: "Michael Cloud" 
Subject: Re: Lame Duck Site = Lame Duck Person

    You fool. I'm not a libertarian(the way you are just a sheep), though I 
    agree with a lot of what they CREATE, all you do is DESTROY. I vote the 
    issues. Just because you focus on them doesn't mean everybody else is. But 
    basically sad, egocentric people like you rarely look beyond the fearful 
    boundaries of their consistently needed self aggrandizement, do they?
    
    Yes, wimp. Post this whole exchange, along with
    
    What you have actually DONE volunteering(in ANY way) for:
    The politicians\party you support and why
    The bugs you study and care so much for.
    What demonstrations\actual EVENTS in which you could put YOURSELF     on  
    the line for your beliefs.
    Do you give to Public Citizen? Habitat International? WHo do you GIVE to, 
    besides you wounded altered ego?
    What libertarian meetings ahve you been to, actual libertarian  people FACE 
    to FACE have you talked to? (If it is nobody, then let them know!)
    
    But you won't BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. ALL TALK, NO CONTENT!!!!!
    
You're probably not even a real Michael Cloud, let alone the one that has
run for senator.

Get a life, troll.
 
Mike Huben      mhuben@world.std.com    http://world.std.com/~mhuben/
  
For rebuttals to libertarian arguments, check out:
 Critiques of Libertarianism     http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html
 Liberalism Resurgent            http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/tenets.htm
See also my monthly column at Suite 101:
 Skepticism                      http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/skepticism

It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view
or strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left
as an exercise for your kill-file.
Bertil Jonell

Counter image omitted.

Copyright 2007 by Mike Huben ( mhuben@world.std.com ).
This document may be freely distributed for non-commercial purposes if it is reproduced in its textual entirety, with this notice intact.