Johanna said
> To me, Christianity, or any religion, has nothing specifically to do
> with Systems Thinking. Here's what Systems Thinking gives me: - a
> way to communicate my mental models in a non-threatening,
> non-judgemental way. Religion does not give me any of that. - a way
> to explore more fully how things in the world really work. Maybe
> this is your "truth".
Maybe the threatening and judgemental elements are man-made. Also,
if we get intimidated and fight back, that behavior may cause shame
and then the evaluation of the situation may be based on one's own
(intimidated) reaction rather than what gets blamed. At least that's
one possible explanation of why the tone of conversations like these
can suddenly change and collegiality goes out the door. Closely
related it the fact (I'm assuming) that humans can react to
"religious" (and judging) type statements more so than they might
acknowledge; for example, the threat of the lone marshmallow is not
very significant. I'm not sure that there's much benefit or good-will
in being told things that highlight behavior that we don't agree
needs changing. What that means is, the right kind of preaching may
not emphasize "correction" like could be imagined. Why say "John
Paul, you shouldn't drink so much coffee", if it's in my heart to
start the day that way and I almost can't imagine doing otherwise? On
the other hand, no one should think that they will be warned
mellifluously of the truck coming down the road.
> My religious beliefs are completely different from yours.
I look at computing science in the following way. It's neat. It
allows iterative additions of functionality and is a good work place
for building something. Its products can enhance activities within
the same realm. It is a parchment that I could not fill with writing.
Yet there is purpose and value in my life that means more to me than
computer science, far more (at least in my opinion). It has to do
with what I believe is true. What do I believe is true? Basically (to
start with) that God knows. What does that mean? To me it means that
in relation to events, activities, thoughts, and troubles in my life,
I have received input that showed me that God knew and that he could
help me to see the situation in better light. I didn't just get the
input in my own mind, it was spoken to me, usually in preaching. It
wasn't just spoken to me, it was shown to me in the life of the
preacher. It wasn't just shown to me as exemplary; I saw it in the
context of having my own life that didn't have the same self-control
and understanding. That may mean almost nothing to someone else,
based perhaps on the preaching that they've heard, and it would mean
less to me based on some of the preaching that I've heard at
different times. There's more to it from what I've seen than what
people may say.
> To me, Christianity has little or no concept of systems thinking-
> as an example, much of Christianity uses a spiritual leader as a
> conduit between the congregation and God.
Or systems thinking has little concept of the things that are unseen
(or the things that it has little concept of :) "Why, we never
thought of that before!" "You mean, it's not on the system map?" "Uh,
did we do the 'no electricity' scenario?"
> Why should there be some human being who has the "telephone line"?
> Why don't we all have the telephone lines? (Why is the stock
> limited?)
Who wants to know? :) I've noticed that I am not usually eager to
"learn more" about what God is saying to everyone or even very eager
usually to find out particularly what I should do unless it's
something that I just deal with in life or understand that I should
do. I wouldn't say that I don't want to know, just that I don't
pursue the knowledge and may not believe that I would get the
knowledge simply through pursuing it. The apostle Paul said that he
received the gospel through revelation; I received the gospel through
hearing someone else preach what Paul said.
> So, when you say that Christianity is truth is Systems Thinking, I
> not only disagree with you, but I have no way to pursue my mental
> models with you. This is the antithesis of ST.
Is Your comment pursuing Your mental model?
> I have no wish to offend anyone of any religion with this post.
Or simply anyone :)
> What we need is a way to communicate our truths to each other- and
> I can't figure out how to do that with your post, and others
> similar to it.
I hear what You're saying.
> And, when I post, I do not have a feeling of being set free, nor do
> I have an overwhelming sense of anything, except perhaps dread that
> I'll be flamed for being inappropriate. (wry :-)
Yes, I remember the flames and hot chocolate myself. They're virtual :)
Have a nice day
John Paul Fullerton
jpf@myriad.net
--"John Paul Fullerton" <jpf@mail.myriad.net>
Learning-org -- An Internet Dialog on Learning Organizations For info: <rkarash@karash.com> -or- <http://world.std.com/~lo/>