Jack, let't try this in the context of a team within an organisation.
Can we distinguish the team as a a system and the larger organisation
as a system which forms the environment of that team?
If so, then is the manager of the team part of the system of the team
or part of the environment of the team? Might it be useful to say
that there is another system as well which is "team" and "team with
manager" which are both in and part of the larger system
My point is that each of this is a distinct phenomenon. The value in
the distinction is to see that each operates, *at least in some
ways*, independently of the other while also seeing that all exist
concurrently and the actions of each "system" impact the other
I agree with you that if we fail to see that we are part of larger
systems and have environments which are systems that we are both
influencing and being influenced by, we will make serious and
-- Michael McMaster Michael@kbddean.demon.co.uk