Hello -- I'm the host for the learning-org list.
There's a little problem here -- would you please just forward (it's "F"
on my system) this message to
...and I'll then be able to distribute your posting to the mailing list.
The problem is that you (or probably your mail program) sent you response
to the wrong address. You can post to the list by sending your msg to the
address above. Something has gone wrong in your gateway or your mail
program; it is sending your response to the "Sender:" line in the message
header, it should be sending it to the "Reply-To:" line in the message
header. (This last sentence is for your system administrator.)
Richard Karash ("Rick") | (o) 508-879-8301 | Mac * Flying
Innovation Associates, Inc. | (fax) 508-626-2205 | Systems Thinking
3 Speen St, Framingham MA 01701 | rkarash@world.std.com | Std. Disclaimer
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:25:05 -0600
From: ELLIOTH@MAIL.STATE.WI.US
To: "EMX -learning (052)learning-org-approval(a)world."
<learning-org-approval@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Bashing Management books LO297
Response to L0297 - Ivan
Hi! My name is Theresa Elliott. I am a Training Officer for the Division
of Safety and Buildings, within the Department of Industry, Labor and Human
Relations - Madison, Wisconsin (GOVERNMENT).
My organization has been evolving since 1911. The "big bang" that brought
our organization to where we are at today, actually started in 1989 - when
we began to study this concept known as QUALITY. Our learning has allowed
us to explore ideas and thoughts like process/systems identification and
changes, customer relations, data driven decisions, the creation of a
learning organization, systemic thinking.....We have read and dialogued all
the books, met most of the guru's-and guru wanna be's, struggled with the
various philosophies, and have now been able to start defining our
"identity" as a result of our experiences, individual histories, political
realities, social expectations, and recent QUALITY learning.
Periodically, as I attempt to share concepts, methods and tools with some of
my fellow government peers I find myself and my teachers (Deming, Senge,
Kohn, Kim, Joiner, Neuhauser, Osborne...) challenged by persons -"bashers" -
whom claim " we" are "propagating fads," "feeding the frenzy, " "disguising
obsolete methods in pretty book jacket, expensive seminars, and flashy
videos."
Ivan applauded the "bashing". And, I agree. I believe that we tend to take
ourselves too seriously - the authors, the teachers, the doctors, the
lawyers, the scientists, politicians and more! I believe that many of us
have gone to a very dangerous place. I define that place as the place were
we begin to actually believe in our ideas. And, what's worse we believe
that our ideas are the answers.
I can't help but think that the "bashers" Ivan referred to - keep us in
check - challenge our puffed up pontificating - force us to prove our
validity over and over again. They stimulate my learning. They defy my
definitions. They make me hear them and their realities, and as a result
they show me that the utopia I speak of, does not yet exist - and the work,
and the teaching, and the learning, therefore, must continue.
If we as "learners" begin to take the words of the Deming's, Senge's,
Champy's, and others as the final word - we have then for all practical
purposes stopped learning. We become fanatics, zealots, enthusiasts who
wrap ourselves in other peoples thoughts. I believe that people like
Deming, Senge and others intended their words and concepts to be nothing
more than the baseline...I believe that we haven't even begun to put
together the equation let alone have the answers.
Bully for the "bashers"!
Best regards,
Theresa M. Elliott
Division of Safety and Buildings
Department of Industry, Labor and Human Relations
Madison, WI
Ellioth@Mail.state.wi.us
----------
From: learning-org-approval@world.
To: ELLIOTH
Subject: Re: Bashing Management books LO297
Date: Thursday, March 02, 1995 10:30PM
Replying to LO115 --
Bashing management books and fads are kind of connected. Management books
and the concepts they contain are the subject of this bashing for the
simple reason that they are not doing the job anymore. Most of them were
very good until, as Kent said in a previous message, they were made
obsolete by the writing on the fringes. Senge, Lessem, Koopman, Deming,
Argyris, etc. seem to have been on the fringes. They could see new
things, that others could not. I tried to defend the "books" too by
asking people to also take a closer look, or a "careful examintation."
But now I ask myself, how can a careful examination of an obsolete book
produce in terms of new learning! This doesn't mean that we should
abandon some of the theoretical concepts presented in those books. What
we need to abandon is the interpretations of those theories presented in
those books that have passed down generations after generations with very
little change.
So, I don't think that bashing management books is a bad thing. I believe
that bashing might help us shake off those interpretations, and force us
to search for new ones. For instance, most management books are written
on the basis that management thinks, plans, directs, etc., and
subordinates work! Regardless of how many new concepts are incorporated
in the books, the basic premise of command and control dominates the
writing. I have some colleagues who told me once that it was necessary to
preserve that, because command and control principles constitue the
business reality. But the business community continues to say that we
(business schools) are "disconnected" (Wall Street Journal, Feb. 28 ?),
from them!
I believe the business community!
Ivan,
***************************************************************
R. IVAN BLANCO, Ph.D. Voice 305 899-3515
Assoc. Prof. & Director Fax 305 892-6412
International Business Programs
Andreas School of Business _________E-Mail Addresses________
Barry University Bitnet: Blanco%bu4090@Barryu
Miami Shores, FL 33161-6695 Internet: Blanco@bu4090.barry.edu
<<<<< ---------------- >>>>>
"Las naciones marchan hacia el termino de su grandeza, con
el mismo paso que camina su educacion." "The nations march
toward their greatness at the same pace as their educational
systems evolve." Simon Bolivar
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